Curse

draxynnic · Jul 29, 2009, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I don't see how you can not see conditions as significant. Bleeding, for example, is armor-ignoring +6 dps. After 5 sec, that's equal to an attack skill. And it'll keep going after that, without spending extra energy. And that's one of the more pathetic conditions. Weakness makes melee 66% less effective. Blindness makes melee 90% less effective. If you don't think the ability to avoid that plus 100 health is worth an elite and a pve slot, ok, but to some it's a fair trade.

In my experience, the only conditions I tend to worry about are blind, daze, and constant burning. Daze doesn't really apply to dervishes (even spellcasting dervishes have fairly short casting times, so the effect of Daze is minimised), but on the other hand, the ability to laugh off blind is really, really useful in some areas where the monks do have serious trouble keeping up (Shards of Orr being the example that sticks in my mind).

And Avatar of Melandru does make a more convenient substitute for Frigid Armor for A Call To Arms. Niche uses, I know, but they're there.

Awex Mafyews · Jul 29, 2009, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Avatars lol, and the fact resurrect is on one of your bars.

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Needs no IAS.

I use a variation of that build and it works like a dream, no IAS is needed like he said it also dishes out a load of damage probably more than any build with an avatar.

AtomicMew · Aug 04, 2009, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

AoM if you really honestly need this in a condition heavy area, it's better the dervish do support instead of frontlining if conditions are being applied this fast, and you better to bring no melee at all, if you then say to let the derv tank, once again warrior wins.

That doesn't follow at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

You don't seem to see conditions are near useless in PvE, and bringing AoM to counter it is a waste of an elite, therefore it's basically adding 100 health, and bringing AoD to relieve pressure from monks..you're basically being the normal PuG half bar to keep yourself alive dervish.

I just did SoO with a scythe sin. Sooo much blind, even RC + remedy was not nearly enough. AoM would have been about 10x better.

Zzes Tyan · Aug 04, 2009, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Conditions dont matter, any decent monk(s) should keep the frontliners clean of dangerous conditions, and keeping them alive. Saving the need for crappy elites like AoM.

Dead stuff cant put conditions on you (death nova doesnt count). I'd rather have to remove conditions for 15 seconds while my frontliner kills stuff than sit there and spam heals as nothing dies for 30 seconds.

I admit it has its uses (SoO) but outside of that Blind is fairly rare, and when present it is easily removed.

reaper with no name · Aug 04, 2009, 10:19 PM // 22:19

If your monks are constantly removing conditions from you, then guess what? They aren't healing as much. That alone makes AoM worthwhile in condition-heavy areas.

Improvavel · Aug 05, 2009, 01:48 PM // 13:48

In a large portion of the game while hexes and conditions doesn't matter in others they actually do.

While having a single front liner clean of conditions or hexes might not seem as much, if all of the front liners are it is a bit of energy saved.

I think that most people that bash the importance of hexes and conditions rarely play heavy physical teams - which if we think about is normal, as physical heavy teams work much better with full human parties and those are either rare or playing gimmick builds.

Heavy hexes and heavy conditions will destroy a physical team.

To counter those you need elite anti-hex and/or elite anti-condition - 2 or 3 Mel dervishes backed up by some imbagon and a couple of ER eles work quite fine in SoO, for example.

If you don't bring Mel, you will have to bring something else to deal with blind - like RC. Some professions like warrior can go by with sight beyond sight, but others will probably have to sacrifice important stuff to go /Rt.

Bottom line is - Dervishes needs some changes to do something other melees using a scythe or not (AoE scythe is nice, but axes also have aoe attacks and so do hammers and other weapons) can't.

Until then, dervishes will be either inferior (inferior doesn't mean they can't do it - they surely can) or only work in a few restricted niches.

IronSheik · Aug 05, 2009, 06:19 PM // 18:19

In SoO as I said, you're better off running something to absorb all the hexes, conditions and KDs. Running a Melandru derv you'll need to bring 2 PvE slots to prevent the KD and keeping up avatar, which lower's your DPS, and you'll be doing crap damage, so you may as well Not bring a dervish here

If you DO bring a frontliner, having your monk spam condition removers for you to get one auto attack off is useless, and bringing Melandru to counter this makes a fire ele do more than you, so you either run sight beyond sight and frontline, or run something more useful.

Improvavel · Aug 05, 2009, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

In SoO as I said, you're better off running something to absorb all the hexes, conditions and KDs. Running a Melandru derv you'll need to bring 2 PvE slots to prevent the KD and keeping up avatar, which lower's your DPS, and you'll be doing crap damage, so you may as well Not bring a dervish here

a) Eternal aura also deals 200 damage to the undead;
b) You can survive the knockdowns - they are nowhere near the importance of blind.
c) Dervs deal 2x damage vs undead.

reaper with no name · Aug 05, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

An avatar dervish is not significantly weaker in terms of dps than a non-avatar dervish. I don't know where people get that idea. You still have AoHM and you still have Asuran Scan. Unless you're running Ural's Hammer (in which case I'd laugh at you, because it doesn't last nearly long enough to be considered a significant damage boost), your damage isn't any better. You just sacrifice the utility that your third PvE slot would have offered.

Perfected Shadow · Aug 06, 2009, 03:39 AM // 03:39

I found SoO to be a pain even with Assassin's remedy and foul feast on a hero. In that situation I was wishing I was an AoM Derv

. As for needing to bring anti-kd, you can make a hero use aura of stability on you, which will probably give you enough time to blow up all the shock users.

IronSheik · Aug 06, 2009, 07:02 AM // 07:02

An avatar dervish is significantly weaker than a non-avatar.

Dervs deal 2x damage vs undead.

So does Any AoHM Scythe User, or HoHF

You can survive the KDs

I never said anything about them killing you, I simply meant Constant Shocks in SoO make your damage suck therefore a KD prevention is needed for any damage coming from a frontliner.

Eternal Aura does 200 Holy Damage

And LoD does 160 with a shorter recharge, point?

Ural's Sucks on Derv Lol Noob

If you're spending more than 10-15 seconds on a group you're doing it wrong

That being said, Without extremely specific skills, it's almost useless to try and do frontline DPS in SoO, even with Mel.

AtomicMew · Aug 06, 2009, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

An avatar dervish is significantly weaker than a non-avatar.

Dervs deal 2x damage vs undead.

So does Any AoHM Scythe User, or HoHF

The point is, you are only missing one PvE skill. Aside from AoHM and asura scan, there's no PvE skill that will significantly boost your your DPS.

Quote:

I never said anything about them killing you, I simply meant Constant Shocks in SoO make your damage suck therefore a KD prevention is needed for any damage coming from a frontliner.

So in other words, it's better that your FRONTLINE gets KD rather than your backline. If you have no frontline, then it's just your backline getting KD. Having no frontline doesn't mean you suddenly get KD less.

Quote:

If you're spending more than 10-15 seconds on a group you're doing it wrong

That's utter crap. If that were the case, then there would be no need to take eternal aura.

So GG. 3 choice PvE skills + avatar > 3 choice PvE skills.

IronSheik · Aug 06, 2009, 06:18 PM // 18:18

You are missing one PvE skill, yes, but you're also taking out your elite slot.

And honestly...most HM groups don't take more than 15 seconds, Ural's is a fine 3rd PvE choice with the extremely high damage from Asuran+AoHM.

reaper with no name · Aug 08, 2009, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Most monsters don't last 15 seconds, but most mobs last far longer. Heck, even in drazach thicket (where I farm kurzick faction with a guildmate and some sabway heroes), mobs last far longer than that (and most monsters there don't go past lvl 26).

reaper with no name · Aug 24, 2009, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Well, it took a while, but I finally found a way to use zealous vow in a build without rendering oneself completely redundant. Normally, there's nothing a zealous vow dervish can do that a scythe warrior can't do better, but then it hit me; scythe warriors can't use pets.

Zealous Vow
AoHM
Never Rampage Alone
Asuran Scan
Mystic Sweep
Eremite's Attack
Victorious Sweep
Comfort Animal

It's not much, but I always figure it's better to have one small thing you can do better than the other guy than to be outclassed by him in every single way.

And in case anyone is wondering, no, a scythe ranger does not make this build redundant either. Rangers have no synergy with scythes except for energy management. That's why they can outscythe a typical WS dervish (who can't spam scythe attacks nearly as well). However, a zealous vow dervish can spam scythe attacks just as well as a scythe ranger, and will therefore be a slightly better scythe user thanks to his headpiece and runes.